Plug-in hybrid opinions/options?

"BaconSandwich is tasty." (baconsandwich)
02/26/2014 at 18:25 • Filed to: plug-in hybrid, hybrid, i3, T27, C-Max Energi, Volt

I'm recently really liking the idea of using a lot less gas. I'm currently having to fill up about every two weeks, with the majority of the driving being in town. My current daily driver is a 2001 civic sedan, which has been averaging around 6.5 L/100 km - or about 36 mpg. Ideally my wife and I would like to get something like a Tesla, but with the price being what it is, that isn't likely going to happen in the next 10 years. I figure that even a plug-in hybrid with a range of 20 km would cover 80% of my driving.

This got me looking at what other options are out there for either fully electric, or more specifically plug in hybrids. So far, I've read about the:

- Chevy volt (largest electric only range, but higher price and smaller cargo space)
- Ford C-Max Energi (mid-range on electric only. Decent cargo space).
- Prius Plug-In (shortest electric range, and it's a Prius)
- BMW i3 (most expensive of the bunch at $45k+. I don't mind the way it looks though)

Also out there is the Fusion plug-in hybrid, but it seems a reasonable bit bigger than the other options. Our current living situation doesn't give us a lot of parking room, so I'd like to avoid larger vehicles.

So, what's the genera Jalop consensus out there? is the C-Max Energi any decent? How about the Volt?

DISCUSSION (47)

Battery Tender Unnecessary > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:26

Don't forget $7500 tax credit on cars like the i3.

Trunk Impaired 318 > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:29

I think the i3 is by far the best option

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:31

I think the Volt looks pretty cool, a guy at work just got one and I've been trying to corner him into letting me drive it.

The Accord Plug-In is something that exists?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-h…

Roberto G. > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:33

Here in Italy we like a lot the bi-fuel cars (gasoline + LPG). I have one too, since the price of LPG is half of that of gasoline, the performances are almost the same, the car is not polluting and with 30 liters of LPG I can make more than 350 km in mixed traffic.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Battery Tender Unnecessary
02/26/2014 at 18:37

Thing is, I'm in Alberta - oil country. I don't think there would be any tax credit here, would there?

BaconSandwich is tasty. > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
02/26/2014 at 18:38

I did come across the Accord plug-in as well. It seems like a bit of an odd-ball, and any reviews I could find of it weren't too positive.

As for the Volt, one option I do have is this: I have a colleague of mine who is currently working in California. I've told him that if he buys a Volt there, then brings it back when he's done working there, I'd buy it off him. I'm not sure how the tax rebates work with California, but it could end up being the least expensive of the bunch.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Trunk Impaired 318
02/26/2014 at 18:40

So far, everything I've come across about the i3 is pretty positive. I.e.:

One thing I would be concerned about is how well the carbon fiber reinforced plastic will hold up over time. That, and the range extender is something like another $4000.

Battery Tender Unnecessary > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:41

Canada's even better (if you're in Ontario or Quebec). It's just a straight rebate of $8-8.5k.

The Dummy Gummy > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:42

It doesn't sound like you are diving too often. Are you looking to get rid of the car to get a more fuel efficient car or is it just time to move on? If it is to get a more fuel efficient car, you won't recoup the cost of a new car for a while. 36mpg is nothing to shake a stick at. If you are looking for pure electric, although ugly and lower cargo space, the Smart Electric will be the cheapest at around $17,250 after tax rebates.

For cargo: Honda Insight Hybrid 41/44 $18,600.

For non-hybrid/diesel: Chevy Cruze 42MPG Highway $19,935

For diesel: Golf TDI (if it shows up) 30/42 $25,200

ETA: all my suggestions are with the assumption you're in the US. The ball game completely changes if you are in Europe.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Battery Tender Unnecessary
02/26/2014 at 18:44

It would seem that Ontario, B.C. and Quebec are the only provinces that have any sort of rebate for electric cars.

I suppose if I was being sneaky, I could get my brother who lives in Ottawa to buy it, then buy it off of him, but that seems borderline dishonest.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Roberto G.
02/26/2014 at 18:45

I noticed something similar in Thailand - a lot of vans and big trucks running LPG or CNG. Unfortunately that hasn't really taken off in Canada or the U.S. That is pretty cool to hear that it is happening in Italy though.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:47

that could work, he may not want to sell it though :)

The true oppo approved route would be to convert something old and brown to EV

BaconSandwich is tasty. > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
02/26/2014 at 18:50

Ha ha! That had occurred to me. I remember reading about someone who did an EV conversion on a Toyota MR2. It weight a LOT more than the original, and it had pretty limited range, but that could certainly be a fun project.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > The Dummy Gummy
02/26/2014 at 18:55

Well, I think it's a little bit of A and a little bit of B. Right now I'm driving 6+ days a week, although not long distances - usually < 20 km a day, although about every two weeks we make a 175 km round trip. For several years I worked writing software for the oil and gas industry, and as much as I love a big V8, I feel that we really should (and need!) to do more to get away from burning fossil fuels - especially when there are viable alternatives out there. This is why I'm leaning toward a plug-in hybrid. My wife is currently driving a 2000 Cavalier, so if one of us was to get a plug-in hybrid, we could cut our gasoline costs in half. We still do make the occasional long trip (for example, this past week I made two 450 km trips), so we still need the range of a gas car. At least with a plug-in hybrid, I'd have the range of the gas without having to use any gas on short trips.

coriolis > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:56

Hi, I DD a 2011 Volt, and have been for a bit over 3 years. Living in Toronto, I work in real estate and its a fleet vehicle, I drive anywhere from 5km to 200km per day. random mix of highway, city and idling.

Can you give me a driving breakdown?

Feel free to ask me anything and I'll try to help :) Not going to lie, I've almost always have directed anyone who asks about the Volt, away from the Volt. It's a really really niche vehicle, but for the 5% that it applies to, its fantastic.

Kinja'd!!!

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 18:59

I'd do it but I'm pretty fond of the 3SGTE I have in my MR2 already...

There's been a few people who have done it so there's no shortage of people you can go to for advice on it. EV West did a pretty clean install that I watched on Youtube.

I've always like EV conversions since I saw a Subaru Brumby in the mid 90's with the conversion done. I think it had something like 32 Batteries hidden in and around it.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > coriolis
02/26/2014 at 19:04

Thanks for being willing to answer a few questions.

Well, my wife and I are both currently driving 5+ days a week. We both generally drive <20 km/day, with the occasional 175 km trip (about every two weeks or so). We do make longer trips, so having at least one vehicle with a decent range (300+ km) is essential.

With your Volt, how much trunk space is there? Would there be enough space to fit a jogging stroller? How does it handle with particularly cold weather?

Trunk Impaired 318 > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 19:23

I think the carbon fiber reinforced plastic will hold up just fine, the price is definitely the drawback but it's by far and away the best value

deekster_caddy > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 19:39

I'm driving a Volt. I have been for 14 months. I can't rave about it enough, the thing is amazing.

Big question for you - how far do you drive every day? What's your commute?

If you can handle the limited range and have another car for long trips, it's hard to beat an all EV like the Leaf or Spark. One thing driving the Volt has taught me is that a medium range EV like that would handle 80% of my driving needs, and I have other cars to choose from on another day, or I could let somebody else drive at times.

I can tell you more than you want to know about the Volt. Currently I have 15K on the car and almost 11K are EV only miles. I'm "averaging" 100 MPG over the life of the car, but that doesn't account for the electricity used.

edit - here are some pictures. 1) some generic Volt pictures

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6509315…

2) I drove it up Mt Washington last summer for kicks:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6509315…

coriolis > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 20:00

The Volt currently gives me about 40 km of driving mileage. Wait, you might say, why so low? Well, once the weather starts dropping to single digits, the Volt's battery life literally takes a plunge. Not only that, the engine will force itself on (even with 90%+ battery) in the winter to keep its internals warm, which will use gas - this isn't a big deal but is something worth mentioning.

Anyways, in the summer you can hit 60-70 km easy. especially if you're driving streets/city, stop and go traffic no faster then 70-80kmph.

On the highway, the battery life takes a big hit. Due to the constant use, the battery will deplete itself faster then in stop and go traffic, where you coast and use regenerative braking. On my longer trips (100+ km), I average 7-8L/100km, or 10-11L/100km in the winter. Quite a bit leap.

However, in your case, it might work out quite well, if you get to charge it every night(it takes 15~ kWh for a full charge, costs about $1.30 per charge here in Toronto), you can go a while before needing to fill gas. You can drive 400~ km with a full battery and tank of gas.

One summer I went 8000 km (over 5 months) without filling gas, drove 50km daily through streets. Then my assignments got further and further, as my my MPG.

As for trunk space, its like a tub, its high up and deep. It's not bad but the weird shape and size is okay, I'm not sure about a jogging stroller. But it fits my hockey goalie bag (which is wider but shorter than a golf bag). The liftgate is easy to use. The resulting rear visibility is crap, I'd recommend getting the rear view camera (or get it aftermarket).

BaconSandwich is tasty. > coriolis
02/26/2014 at 20:46

Wow, thanks for the answer. I'm quite surprised at the mileage drop in winter. I figured it'd be bad, but not that bad. The one video review I watched of the Ford C-Max Energi also said that if you turn on the defrost to it's maximum setting that it would also turn on the gas engine, regardless of battery charge. I wonder if the Volt is doing something similar?

I also find it interesting that you mentioned the rear visibility - which was the next thing I was going to ask about. That's really a bit of a shame.

It still sound like quite an interesting ride. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions!

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy
02/26/2014 at 20:52

I also suspect that a regular EV would cover 80% of our needs. The advantage of something like the Volt is that the same car can also cover the other 20%. I also worry a bit about how well something like the Leaf would do in a cold climate.

My average commute is <20 km/day. About every two weeks I make a 175 km trip, with a few longer trips less often. The one thing I worry about with something like the Volt is how well it handles cold weather. How has yours held up when things get cold (i.e.: sub-freezing)?

deekster_caddy > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 21:21

The Volt is extremely well designed and has cold weather in mind. There is a setting to have the engine run for heat assist at 35F or 15F (I think like 1 and -5C?). If set to 35 the engine turns on whenever it's below freezing. This is fine if you tend to use up the whole battery every day anyway. I keep mine set to 15F and get about 25 miles of EV range on the coldest days. If it drops below 15F the engine starts and my EV range goes back to normal (35ish).

The battery has a full temperature control system. It will heat or cool the battery if it falls outside their range. As long as the car is plugged in, the TMS (Temp Monitor/Maintaing System) will heat or cool the battery as needed. It will warm the battery to it's minimum temp while charging.

If you leave the Volt in a parking lot and it's -40, and it's there long enough to cold soak (12 hours or more) you may get a message about propulsion power reduced and it will run the gas engine almost exclusively until it can warm up the battery. So the Volt likes to be plugged in, but it can handle the cold. This info is from others in the far north's experiences on the Volt forum I'm on, I have never experienced this personally and it does get sub-0 (F) here.

The other nice thing is that the battery can't overheat and therefore shorten it's life like Leaf owners in Arizona and Texas experienced.

Engineering was very protective of the battery when they designed the Volt. There are a few in the wild with 100K miles and no sign of battery degradation.

coriolis > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 21:24

No worries, glad to have helped.

The rear visibility is definitely a let down, but its due to the liftgate which allows more rear headroom and hatch space. The side visibility with the mirrors and rear windows aren't great, I bought a set of blindspot circular dome mirrors, they help a lot. Again the rear visibility isn't good because of how high up the rear liftgate is, the rear window is a small useless piece of glass. I'd recommend a test drive, its a surprising car.

deekster_caddy > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/26/2014 at 21:24

Kinja'd!!!

Here's an interesting side-note about sub freezing temps (which it handles just fine, read my other post) - If there is no engine running under the hood, there is nothing to melt the snow!

deekster_caddy > coriolis
02/26/2014 at 21:29

Just a few quick notes - you have a 2011. Starting in 2013 you can set the Engine Heat Assist temp at freezing or much colder (35F or 15F, not sure C). Also, I would say the EV Range takes a hit, not the Battery Life. People are very concerned about longevity of the battery, so Battery Life tends to get people thinking long term damage - it's not at all, just a short term loss due to your heater eating up some of the electrons.

coriolis > deekster_caddy
02/26/2014 at 21:31

You are correct, I should of realized it was the wrong term. I had to pause before using it, I didn't recall what it was called at the time.

deekster_caddy > coriolis
02/26/2014 at 21:33

All good. I just thought it was worth pointing out!

deekster_caddy > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
02/26/2014 at 21:34

Where are you? I'll let anybody drive my Volt!

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > deekster_caddy
02/26/2014 at 21:38

Kinja'd!!!

The guy at work with the Volt isn't in my department, so coming up with a non-creep excuse to drive it is hard.

deekster_caddy > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
02/26/2014 at 21:40

Plus, upside down kangaroos make everything better!

(Is that a hint that you are in Australia?)

Most Volt owners are very receptive to strangers kicking up a conversation. It should be pretty easy to walk up to the guy out of the blue and just start peppering him with questions and "Can I drive it?" I would totally do that if the conversation was going the right way.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > deekster_caddy
02/26/2014 at 21:45

yeah, gotta corner him first, I only ever see him through the window and I'm not sure what floor he works on.

Short of camping out near his parking spot and springing on him I'll just have to wait and see if we run into eachother.

Jobjoris > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/27/2014 at 05:03

I DD a Volvo V60 D6 Plug-in Hybrid. It's awesome. About 45/50 kms on electric. On average I do 3 liters of diesel (DIESEL WAGON!) on 100 kms, that should be over 90 miles per Gallon. And when you use both electric and diesel together it really doesn't have any competition with it's 280 bhp, besides a Tesla Model S.

When just using diesel it'll bring you over 600 kms doing 130 km/h on average, nice to know when you're planning a holiday or something. It's diesel capacity is only 45 liters/12 gallons.

It's luggage-compartment is somewhat smaller (higher floor as that's where the extra batteries go).

It's more expensive then the ones you list (not even sure you'll be able to get it outside EU?) but tax-cuts over here make it a less painfull process to buy. Or so I tell my self.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Jobjoris
02/27/2014 at 10:05

Oh man, that sounds awesome. As far as I know, there are no plans to bring it to North America, which is a crying shame.

I wonder if it would be possible to import one.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy
02/27/2014 at 10:07

Oddly enough, you reminded me of a list of two supposedly Canadian inventions - the electric streetcar, and right after that - the electric streetcar heater!

I wonder though - so long as the vehicle is plugged in, could it use some of the power coming in to heat the batteries/interior, rather than waiting until it is unplugged, then having to use the gas engine or batteries to do the work?

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy
02/27/2014 at 10:08

I'm in Lethbridge, Alberta. Whereabouts are you?

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy
02/27/2014 at 10:09

Heh, that reminds me - there's a guy here in Lethbridge that has a Tesla Model S. I was able to pull up next to him at a red light, and tried to tell him he had a nice car. I think I creeped him out.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy
02/27/2014 at 10:13

Interesting! Apparently 15F works out to about -9C, which isn't all that bad. I was worried that the cutoff was going to be much higher than that.

I did a quick search on the San Francisco area Craigslist, and it seems that the running price for a new Volt is around $37,000. I'm guessing if a person was buying it out of state, that there'd be no subsidies applied?

deekster_caddy > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/27/2014 at 10:18

Yes, if you remote start while it's plugged in it will use whatever grid power it can. It won't start the gas engine until you unplug. I do this every day. I remote start once a good while before I leave, then when I walk my dog I hop in the car and turn it on (it will run longer than the 10 minute remote start). The car is nice and toasty when I leave. If you have 220V the battery should still be nearly full. If you leave the heat on 'eco' it should stay full. If you set the heat to 'comfort' the heater can out-draw the charger so you will use a bit of battery.

Jobjoris > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/27/2014 at 10:21

Almost forgot the most important part: It comes as standard with a block-heater!!!

deekster_caddy > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/27/2014 at 10:21

Fed subsidies apply but if you are in Canada I don't think so. CA has it's own subsidies.

A Base MSRP on the Volt should be around 35K. Most dealers will discount off that, sometimes significantly. You should be able to get the purchase price down at least another 3K, sometimes more depending on the dealership. Plus add in whatever rebates you are eligible for in your state. I'm not sure if it matters where you make the purchase as much as where you live. Even if you buy out of state, you are still a resident. There are a few dealers who offer amazing deals and will arrange shipping that makes it worthwhile.

Do make sure there is a dealership near you with a Volt trained technician. Not all Chevy dealers can service a Volt (kind of like the corvette).

deekster_caddy > Jobjoris
02/27/2014 at 11:31

I would like to hear more about this car!

How does the diesel react to stop/start driving? I know that (and cost) were concerns in using a diesel hybrid anything.

Car like this would make a nice replacement for our Passat Wagon when the time comes, if such a thing is available. How does it handle cold weather? (ie what does it do to heat the cabin, etc)

I drive a Volt, so I'm well versed in the terminology. Just have heard very little about this car.

Jobjoris > deekster_caddy
02/27/2014 at 13:48

It's pretty neat, not the quietest diesel around but as it is a 5-cylinder I really don't care. I've had a Mini Cooper Diesel with stop/start on it: that was way more uncomfortable regarding the stopping/starting of the Diesel engine.

Your Passat will easily win when it comes to the interior-room though, the V60 isn't the biggest wagon, especially the PIH isn't with it's lifted cargo-floor.

We didn't have a real strong winter yet, but the block-heater uses the diesel to pre-heat up the cabin well. I suppose that's also used when traveling the first electrical miles. And best part is that you can start the heating process either by timer or by your smart-phone.

I also drove a Citroën DS5 but that was not nearly as good. Felt very heavy when cornering and wasn't nearly as powerfull. And it's not as tax-friendly over here, though cheaper to buy when bought privately.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Jobjoris
02/27/2014 at 14:31

Nice!!

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy
02/27/2014 at 14:59

Well that's pretty cool to know. I was hoping they did something like that.

Is it possible to charge it from a 110 outlet? (Obviously, it'd take a lot longer, but it would open up more options for charging in various places).

deekster_caddy > BaconSandwich is tasty.
02/27/2014 at 15:15

Definitely. All EVs can charge at 110 that I know of, just slower The Volt comes with a 110V charger from Chevy. GM offers a 220V charger but aftermarket rules in that case. On 110 with the OEM "EVSE" (fancy relay box most people call a charger, but really the charger is in the car) you get to select 8 or 12 Amps (from inside the car). It defaults to 8A assuming most people's outlets are a bit sketchy. If you know your outlets and wiring is good you can bump it to 12A. At 12 it charges in about 10 hours. 8A about 12-13 hours. Depends on your actual voltage - if you have 110, 120, 124, 108 at the outlet. I have 119 on one leg and 124 on the other, so it depends which leg I plug into at my house.

Feel free to send me an email - my username here at yahoo - if you have any questions too. (don't worry, of course I'll still see the notifications here if you reply)

Nibby > BaconSandwich is tasty.
03/02/2014 at 17:26

see http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/ford-fusion-un…